The Pope is in Hell, or, my life in the Church of Christ
It is sanctimonious bullshit like “The Pope is in Hell” that really pisses me off. Specifically, when one group of Christians determines that a person is hell-bound because they don’t follow the Bible the same way they do.
Now, I’m not lumping all Christians in the same pot. There are many, many who try to live their faith (and do an admirable job doing so) and not condemning others. But there are some within the Protestant Church that go beyond common sense and categorize anyone with a slightly different belief structure as being sacrilegious in regards to the Bible.
I should know. I used to be one.
I used to be an active member in the Churches of Christ. These folks are ardent New Testament followers. They believe that God’s will for the church was made known through the writings of the New Testament. Anything beyond what was written there was not “of Christ” and thus not Biblical. They also strive to emulate (as best they can in the current century) the First Century Church.
They’re known for water baptism before you can be saved. It’s a requirement. And not sprinkling, either; Full body emersion. (After all, that’s how the New Testament shows people being saved. Look it up.) Women can’t be preachers. Or have an active, speaking role during church services. No instrumental music, either. The Early Church didn’t do that.
There are a few things that they’ve argued about that are extremely silly, such as kitchens in the church building. Yes, some churches of Christ believe that you should not have kitchens in the building because the First Century Church didn’t. Or, using one cup at communion. Some Churches of Christ only use one cup to pass the communion grape juice. (And they take communion every day.)
But they agreed on one thing: If you weren’t water baptized or didn’t follow the First Century’s Church example, you were going to hell. (Babies excepted.)
Needless to say, I got tired of their brand of sanctimonious bullshit.
And now I read a website saying that the Pope is going to hell. And they have Bible verses to support their claim. And it pisses me off.
Everyone seems to know the Will of God. Everyone. And everyone says that they’re right. Ask them. And they can give you book, chapter and verse. So if everyone is right, does that make everyone wrong?
Site in Question Here
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That is really incredible. Though the LDS Church has not had anything officially to say about the Popes death, they have not condemned him. It is not for us to judge. We also believe that we are all saints...hense the name The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
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Nov 30, 2005
2:11am
Hi David,
That's quite an interesting and well thought out tirade. I certainly don't want to get into a debate with you; I'm not nearly as well-informed.
I'm left wondering what you do believe. It sounds like the rejection of your fundamentalist roots leads you to resist any notion of God/higher power/whatever.
I agree with almost everything you said, but I don't consider myself a heretic or destined for eternal damnation (but I don't come from a fundamentalist background). Regardless of whatever feeble attempts humans have made to quantify or explain our existence in this world, doesn't your own presence evoke some inkling that "something/one" is responsible? Do you truly believe that the intricate, delicately balanced inner workings of the human body, complete with powerful emotions and amazing creativity, could be a totally random stroke of luck? I think that's a much harder logical pill to swallow than believing God (or whatever you want call Him) set everything in motion (somehow) for some purpose (unknown and unprovable).
All of those "arguments" that you reject are simply those feeble attempts at explaining that which we can not possibly understand or make sense of. God is beyond our capacity for "logic." I, for one, choose not to be bound by human logic and choose instead to make that leap of faith by believing that God (that's what I call Him) created me (or allowed for the conditions under which I came into creation) and the universe (although I don't pretend to have any inkling about how He did it).
Debbie
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I wouldn't call it a tirade, it's rather more of a diatribe, but that doesn't quite work, either. 
Thanks for your comment, Debbie.
To let you know, I'm not ignoring you, but have been thinking about your question: "Do you truly believe that the intricate, delicately balanced inner workings of the human body, complete with powerful emotions and amazing creativity, could be a totally random stroke of luck?"
As I was thinking about this tonight, my headache got worse, so I'll put it off a day and give you an answer later this weekend (probably Sunday) and put it in a new story on the front page. That is, if you're still reading.... hmmmmm....
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Nov 30, 2005
2:14am
Hello. I read that post about the Pope, and I was wondering where you associated the author of the post with the Church of Christ? I am a member just as you used to be, and was just curious where you found that. Anyway, I don't condone at all what he is saying. It isn't our place (humans) to judge where a person ends up after death. That is for God alone to decide. I think his zeal might be clouding his judgement on that fact.
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Nov 30, 2005
2:14am
Well, it was fun reading it, and one day I might actually create a blog in answer to it. Mostly because I enjoy a good debate.
Suffice it to say, that I, as a Christian, Have riddled these same questions and yet, I am still a Christian. Funny how challenges effect differing changes in oneself.
One of my favorite mind teasers always leads me down darkened corridors with no answers, and the question goes like this: How can God, knowing all, know for sure there is not another God somewhere else? And if that were the case, then of course wouldn't he be asking the same questions? "Is there a God?"
Silly isn't it?
Although quite a mind bender, it still does not relieve the possibility of a Creator, whether or not he himself was created is irrelevant, even if it weren't a foolish idea.
You see to me there is no question of whether or not there is a God or not. That is so firmly established by probahbility, that it is almost laughable to conclude any other possibility. But, the thought of a God that has exisited before there was anything else, and beyond that, now THAT, blows my mind. (The Bible teaches that God and His Son were before all things - That means ALL things.) Of course I can say with relative confidence that I am NOT God, so my innability to grasp such constructs of the imagination does not suprise me.
What I note briefly about your perception of Biblical knowledge, is that it is fairly wrong - or at least very, very incomplete. But thats OK, mine is too on occasion. The difference being however, that I cannot find any logical reasoning that gives me the ability to exclude a Creator, vis a vis, my own finiteness, and foolishness. This includes all you have written here, which has appeared in various forms throughout human history. One erroneous statement is your claim that a bunch of people got together and "Voted on the Bible". The uninitiated probably do not know that you refer to the Council of Nicenes. You are either very ignorant about how the various books of the Bible were chosen, or you have decided to fabricate a description to cast doubt in the minds of your listeners. Either scenario is unconscienable. Both secular scholars, and Christians scholars understand why.
It always amazes me that people think they have come up with a new way to explain life, when actually every concept they have ever come up with will have already been concluded in various incarnations in one form or another. Quite simply, Agnostics and Atheists NEVER come up with any new material.
Another point of note: I was involved in a Paralegal capacity for several years (Constitutional law), and I can steadfastly declare that you do not know American History. Oh, you do know some sort of history, but mostly from propaganda of a sort that is always filtered by the winner through the victor's controlled superstructure. The fact that you need to ask what victor I speak of, or what winner I am talking about, further establishes the case. (Yes I know, I am not elaborating, but then I would have to write a book, and there are so many unproven conclusions in your statement of unbelief, I'll take the liberty of exercising similar liberties here)
I suppose you do believe in revisionist history? Or are you to be like most other people victimized at the winds of political pursuit? While claims are made that this group or that makes news, or "spins it", These same people are not cognizant enough to recognze that such statements prove that there are forces attempting to change their understanding of history, and it has been exceptionally successful in the USA. One good example is what the founding fathers thought about 'democracy". Read Federalist Papers 10-11, to get the meaning.
So, How can a fellow like me, answer people making these sorts of observations such as the ones you have made?
The answer is, I cannot. This is because it is a battle, an argument, even a political pursuit that consists solely as a battle of ideologies. This is the identical battle spoken of in the Holy Scriptures. Its Good v Evil, but its got a different name in every generation. Rememeber - Nothing new under the sun?
In conclusion: I do not question your statement that you were a Bible thumper. However, I do question whether or not you ever really accepted Christ. I doubt it. The Bible itself states that individual Christians KNOW they have God. This cannot be "believed away". Once you have received Jesus, there is no way to go back - Old things are passed away... all things are become new. Quite simply put, you cannot "unaccept" God. You can only not accept him - or reject him in the first place.
Cheers!
Mark
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Couldn't Agree More! No kidding! I am SO, so, so tired of all that BS as well. And I used to be that way too, so I know exactly what you are talking about. Isn't it nice to be done with all that deciding who's going to hell and who isn't? I'm happy to leave it up to God to decide and just go about my business. If someone wants to know what I believe, hey, I'll tell them but I have no desire to bully anyone into believing what I do. That's up to them.
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I find it amazing how many times I read of other Christians condemning people to hell. I myself am a Christian, and even though there have been many times that I have wished to not use that title because of the group that it lumps me in I find myself coming back to it over and over again.
I admire the pope. He did a great deal of good in the world, took the gospel to people in a new way of love and peace unlike so many of his predecessors. An interesting site to check out from another evangelical on the pope would be this one. It has a great biblical perspective on the pope.
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I have to wonder who gave this joker that evidently wrote the article, Dr. C. Matthew McMahon, the job of judge and jury as to who believes the right way or not. The question I raise is, "Is it neccessary to have ALL doctrinal matters straight in your spirit, soul and body prior to passing away?" Good luck and start studying hard. Burn the midnight oil cause it is going to be a tougher job than a camel going through the eye of a needle or even a rich man making it...
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Dr. C. Matthew McMahon gets 2 Thumbs Down.
Well I’m not very religious and the only time I go to church is for funerals and weddings but I was raised and educated as a Roman Catholic. As a Catholic I was taught that there is but one God and it didn’t matter if you were Catholic, Protestant, Buddha, Hindu, Muslim or what ever we all share the same God. I was taught that all religions were equal and none, not even Catholicism, was better than the others and we were to follow the path God laid out for us and to respect and honour all other religions as they were the path God chose for those people. I feel sorry for Dr. C. Matthew McMahon the author of that BS, he seems to be nothing more than a bitter, hateful, friendless ass-hole who loves spreading hate and fear. I was also taught that only God had the final say in who goes to heaven or not so I can only laugh at the insane drool that dribbles from his mouth. Dr. C. Matthew McMahon I feel sorry for you and your little mind.
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Nov 30, 2005
2:20am
>>>Well I’m not very religious and the only time I go to church is for funerals and weddings...:
Well my friend, you have no authority to speak on church issues. By this statment, you have shown your ignorance and your current destination upon death is HELL! (Not meant to offend you, just speaking truth. I am not judging you, but the bible states things that lead me and all true christians to believe this fact.)
>>>...I was raised and educated as a Roman Catholic. As a Catholic I was taught that there is but one God and it didn’t matter if you were Catholic, Protestant, Buddha, Hindu, Muslim or what ever we all share the same God.:
Though I don't doubt that you were taught that, but it is false. Someone lied to you. If you read only one book of the Bible, you would see that there IS only one God and he isn't Budda.
>>>...I was taught that all religions were equal and none, not even Catholicism, was better than the others and we were to follow the path God laid out for us and to respect and honour all other religions as they were the path God chose for those people.:
FALSE!
>>>I feel sorry for Dr. C. Matthew McMahon the author of that BS, he seems to be nothing more than a bitter, hateful, friendless ass-hole who loves spreading hate and fear.:
You will regret saying that, either when you come to see the truth, or when you stand before Jesus for Judgment.
>>>I was also taught that only God had the final say in who goes to heaven or not so I can only laugh at the insane drool that dribbles from his mouth. Dr. C. Matthew McMahon I feel sorry for you and your little mind.:
Yes, it is Jesus that has the "final say" (final judgement). But, the bible gives a good picture of who is not going to Heven (or is going to Hell, rather.)
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Wow. How do you recover from terminal literalism? I was certainly judgemental as a kid growing up Catholic, but when I left home, I left that behind with my canopy bed. What changed for you? I mean this most kindly, sheer curiosity, genuine interest.
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Nov 30, 2005
2:21am
All the above disagreements are fruitless based upon what you think, feel or believe; what does Gods word state? You mention the C of C; even they believe in justification by faith alone! Rome does not follow this main tenet of the scriptures. Their theology is semi-Pelagian; Semi-Pelagianism is heresy; It denies Christs sacrifice as sufficient to save His people from their sins. The pope of Rome depends on Rome and his good works. The God of Rome grades upon a curve. This is not the God of the scriptures. Jesus said it best, "The road to eternal life is narrow (get that? NARROW) and few are they that find it. According to Rome, Mary is co-redemptrix (In other words, your sins can be propitiated by someone other than Christ). Hence, Christ has died in vain.
My suggestion, think before you speak. Remove your personal feelings and agenda; God commands and we obey; it has nothing to do with how you feel or think about the command.
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Jan 6, 2006
9:20am
Sad, all this fussing about what others say are do, what a waste of your talents.
My knowledge of the bible is limited, but my faith in God is steadfast and simple.
I believe in one God and I believe he is the same one whorshiped by all regardless of the name he is given, to say different would be to put myself up equal with God, can't do it.
How anyone can say their church or God is the only one is beyond me or that their way to whorship is the only way, so others must be going to hell. That would be acting like God!! We're not that smart. LOL!!
As for the Bible, it is both correct and not correct, for it was put together by man and man is not perfect as we all know, knowing how unperfect we ourselves are.
Man has always wanted control of the people and what better way then to use the bible. History has taught us this over and over. I believe that much was left out of the bible and much was twisted for the perpose of control, some fearfully so. Sometimes with much fear and pain!
I hang on to these things; "The Golden Rule", God's love for his children (we are all his children), God will do the judging not man, and last but not least, He is there for you and me always.
You don't have to be a part of any particular religion or church to believe in God, to know Him, love Him or be saved, though many need this and it is good they can find a religion that is right for them. God will find us where ever we are.
Some one said once, "Think of the church like a hospital and the people in it as sick, injured and dieing, trying to help one another while seaking to be healed". Nothing wrong with that.
Others, like myself stumble through life trying to find their way, knowing there is someone at the end that will reach out a hand and lead them home, while hoping we are worthy.
Don't waste time judging or worring what others think or believe, just trust your heart and follow your on path. God will be the judge in the end, he knows what in our hearts.
I wish the best for all of you in your search for truth and hope I fare well to.
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Mar 12, 2006
12:34am
allah and jehovah, yawee etc are NOT the same God... anyone who thinks Christians and the Muslims are worshipping the same God are fools.... don't take my word for it or rely on your "feelings" do the research and find out the truth... it's about faith... our faith is based on the Bible....period... Allah is not in the Bible.
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Mar 28, 2006
1:56am
Sorry about your problems with faith or with the church of Christ. I'm sure it is hard to go through. In my opinion, however, you should not throw out the core on account of certain opinions which you view to be moronic and wrong. The Word still stands.
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Sep 26, 2007
1:39am
Since I - like my friends "Dustin" and "jeff" above - am fully privy to God's Eternal Plan, I can assure everyone here that I am right because I read THE TRUTH in a book compiled from the writings of dozens of (mostly anonymous) authors writing nearly two millennia ago, in languages now dead, and editions long since lost and translated and copied thousands of times since then. The book has been interpreted variously by tens of thousand of people, many quite birlliant, but thankfully I have discovered its True Original Meaning, and this discovery has given me Absolute Certainty regarding God's will. In light of my Absolute Certainty, I - and I alone - can declare that everyone who disagrees with me, even in the slightest, or even acknowledges the heretical possibility that I might not have Ultimate Knowledge of God' Will, is going to suffer agonizingly for all eternity. This is all part of God's loving plan.
Seriously, Dustin, jeff, just remember that Jesus loved and forgave the sinners. It was the arrogant, self-righteous Rabbinic priests that roused his anger. I feel inclined to agree with him. In short, you'd better pray God has more mercy on you than I would.
#19Another View
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Apr 21, 2008
7:42pm
The Bible clearly lays out the path to heaven. I'm sorry if it upsets you but I also think based on what I have read that the pope is indeed going to hell and my thinking is based on the scripture. Jesus told us in John 14:6 "I am the way the truth and the life, No man cometh to the father except through me" . I believe that to be true. Otherwise there would be no point in the birth, life and death of Jesus Christ and certainly God would not have sent his only son to die without a purpose. So yes I believe when Father (enter name) listens to your confession and you go home feeling forgiven you are being lied to and decieved into thinking you and God are all ok now when in fact we know by reading the scripture you are not, for "no man cometh to the father except through me" No man on this earth can save you from hell and no man on this earth can forgive you of your sins. Only Jesus can do that and he died on the cross so we wouldn't have to sacrifice cows and chickens and pray to saints and holy moly wooden beads. Jesus is our mediator to God so we don't need Pope's and Fathers to forgive us. They're not that important nor were they ever given the right or the power. They are false prophets decieving the masses. So I would agree. I also think the pope and sadly alot of his followers will all be going to hell and those are not my words so flame me all you like. Those are the words of Jesus Christ but likeley if you are catholic you have never read it. All you have read is Catholic Doctrine written by men and likely never opened your bible to see what it says. m
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According to the original article by Dr. C. Matthew McMahon (see link above at the bottom of the original post) the previous Pope, John Paul II, was sent to hell. He was really sent there not by God but by Dr. C. Matthew McMahon, who evidently has the Book of Life in his hands and only allows names to be penciled in. No ink is allowed and there is a big eraser on the pencil. Are you really of the same ilk as he?
In "The Power of Praise & Worship" by Terry Law we are told of an incident (1976) in Poland where Terry and his musical troupe, Living Sound, visited with and spent time Praising and Worshiping the Living God WITH Cardinal Wojtyla, the man who later became Pope John Paul II. In 1980 Living Sound received an invitation from Pope John Paul II at the Vatican and in St. Peter’s Square 60,000 people joined in Praise and Worship. - Perhaps it didn't count and God did not listen to the music and voices because they did not used Old Testament approved musical instruments.
You can disagree with any man's doctrine and teaching but YOU cannot know of any man's heart to heart relationship with the Living God. - God knows those who are His and trust me on this, YOU ARE NOT GOD!!!
(Thank God!)
~~~~~
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I don't think anyone has the right to say where someone is in terms of salvation except God; but we should not forget that the Bible does inform us that there is a lake of fire, and those who are not walking according to the ways of Jesus Christ will end up in it. Matt. 7:21 makes it very clear that just because a person says they believe that doesn't mean they are in good standing with God.
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